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Cooth
  Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
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A.K.E wrote on 27 Nov. (0:42) :
I must tell you something that happened to me yesterday, very strange I thought at first. It maybe doesn't have anything to do with this part of the discussion, but a bit at least. Let me tell this little story:
A friend of mine had somewhat odd musictaste, of what I recalled he listened to only very dark/hard music (like Dark Metal) OR very moodful and beautiful music (like Celine Dion.) Strange combination I thought... Anyway, I send him some ordinary songs and he had such strange and absurd argments why he didn't some of them - I thought he just didn't like them and nothing more about that... We had a little conversation why we liked and disliked some music.
Anyway, this was a while ago, 1-2 months ago maybe. Yesterday we chatted again, and he said to me that he had been to some psychologists for a while... Ok there's no wrong with that I thought. I wondered why... Don't know if I got some direct answer to that, but he explained to me some of the solutions the visitations has given him. He told me that he feeled so much better now and that he couldn't recognize himself anymore (in a positive way)... I dont know for how long, but he said he had always allowed his brain decide things and not his "heart" (what he really thinks and likes), and that the brain had decieved himself to think in certain paths.
He recently talked with this psychologists and that they "opened" his mind. I wondered how this was possible, he told me as long as the "right" things are being told to a person it can really open eyes etc... I've discussed some other things with him during that period, and I thought he had such odd opinions and principles about some things, for instance that lies can be right in some moments.
Now to the thing: He told me over the chat that while discussing about lies etc, it was in his expression "a devil on his shoulder" that told him what to write and that his heart was screaming: "why choose a lie when there is a truth?!", and somehow that makes sense... Today he realizes that he had strange principles, and one other consequence of the treatment psychologists has given him is that his musictaste has changed. The musictaste he had not long ago is today absurd he thinks (for instance Dark Metal) and that was the thing that surprised me the most. He even told me that the songs I sent him long ago he really liked and that I have excellent musictaste. My all-time favourite song is also his, for instance. He explained to me why he said he didn't like the songs before was because it was against his style. More about that later.
I believe him, this is not just a guy, I've known him for about 13 years. Although the last years I have not got any strong contact with him... I've in some way always believed people listening to music that they actually like - by their hearts, but I've always have this theory that some people listens to certain musicstyle to feel accepted by a certain group of people. Because one of the most important thing for a human being is to be a part of other human beings in a social way, and maybe some of them "choose" (consciously or unconsciously) an already existing group - which listens to certain musicstyles and hates certain musicstyles.
Today we have two strong groups, one that listens to hiphop (wearing hiphop-related clothes), another that listens different metal genres (wearing black clothes). OR SOMETHING..... Anyway; they hate the other groups music, and they must do that, and they must do that or else they wont be in the group anymore. Plus the brainwashing music-channel MTV that says what is good music and not, young teenagers buy the crap, etc... All this makes (for instance) hiphop an even bigger musicgenre.
You say: There must be a reason... I say: THAT IS THE REASON.
I'm not saying everyone that listens to hiphop or metal doesn't like it, I'm saying that I believe in a theory that a large number of them doesn't like it by heart, they just do it of social (more important, they feel) reasons. My friend is a proof that reinforcing my theory, although he wasn't THAT weak (he isn't even an young teenager, he is 20 like me.) But I'm glad that he is alright today, not (just) because his musictaste are much more like mine, but because the brain doesn't decieves him anymore.
Very interesting anyway.
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Indeed, it is interesting. I never looked on music this way, although I must say it's rather weird for me. If I don't like a style, because I find it uninteresting for some reasons, can my mind force my heart to like it? Hm.
About those groups... yeah I agree completely. I had that at school and actually the music was the major thing when it came to divisions.  Excluding those students who actually didn't care much and just focused on learning. 
Does it prove that hiphop is a music-monster and should be eliminated for the benefit of humanity?
Maybe you're right, I do take it too literally... But I have no idea, how should I treat it then?
How? Like examples. |
And how do I do in order to do that?
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You may assume the concrete things given are not important, but the mechanism is important. Can't you?
When you learn english, I give you an example sentence "My name is John", you don't say in your language "but your name is not John!", you just try to remember how the structure goes.
But... Hey, please, let us not start a new sub-topic on giving examples! |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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Indeed, it is interesting. I never looked on music this way, although I must say it's rather weird for me. If I don't like a style, because I find it uninteresting for some reasons, can my mind force my heart to like it? Hm. |
Maybe not force the heart to like it, the heart will never like it. It is the mind that decieves the heart and makes you believe that you like it. Or something like that...
About those groups... yeah I agree completely. I had that at school and actually the music was the major thing when it came to divisions. Excluding those students who actually didn't care much and just focused on learning.
Does it prove that hiphop is a music-monster and should be eliminated for the benefit of humanity? |
I'm not really suggesting that, I dont really know what I wanted to prove... Nothing special I guess.
Maybe you're right, I do take it too literally... But I have no idea, how should I treat it then?
How? Like examples. |
And how do I do in order to do that?
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You may assume the concrete things given are not important, but the mechanism is important. Can't you? |
Ok 
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When you learn english, I give you an example sentence "My name is John", you don't say in your language "but your name is not John!", you just try to remember how the structure goes. |
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But... Hey, please, let us not start a new sub-topic on giving examples! |
Hehe, I agree, there are so much we're writing about now so I had to take a paus from this, but now I'll try to answer the rest
Oh btw I am "A.K.E" |
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
OK dude. Why the nick change? You fight monotony not only in music.
Waiting then.  |
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Storm 3003
 Artist
Topics: 33
Replies: 2079
Registered: 20.Mar.03 |
Mr.E wrote on 02 Dec. (14:21) :
Oh btw I am "A.K.E" |
Why this new name? 
 Jason VS Mike  |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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You fight monotony not only in music. |
LOL
Anyway, you guys asked why... I just felt like changing, I never feel satisfied with my names  I suspect it's a psychological disease .. I'm already making excuses why I not should be named "Mr.E" anymore.  |
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Storm 3003
Artist
Topics: 33
Replies: 2079
Registered: 20.Mar.03 |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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Music/Hip Hop – Discussion 1
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If you think this style is overestimated, you can state that of course, there is freedom of speech, but not in reviews for individual songs I believe. |
But I think my freedom of speech will influence my reviewing of that certain style. But maybe I’m not allowed to review hiphop then...
Yeah good point there, although I think songs can work with both richly variated rhythm and melodies. But hiphop has both a repetative beat and music, which is - I guess - the purpose of forcing the attention to what he the rapper have to say. Very much message, which is, my opinion (maybe an artform) but not a pure music artform - reminds more pf poetry than music.
I didn't mean repetitiveness, because this itself may be the point. You can't play around with weird rhythm ideas if the song is supposed to be danced to. I meant complexity and bringing things to front. Once I've heard from my rock/metal friends that in their opinion it's bad when the drummer tries to be in the center of attention. Just a little digression. |
Yeah, I agree I think.
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So if the main point is the lyrics, variated and complex beat would just distract you. Maybe that's the philosophy. |
Yeah I guess that’s the truth... Another art-form with other word, not pure music
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Well, techno is not very melodic, is it? And it is repetitive. But you can use it on a techno-party, where classical music would be out of place, even though it's artistically superior. |
Yeah, but what are classical music doing in a techno party? I’m not saying that some techno styles are more music than hiphop iether. And I can admit that classical music is a great big genre of music, probably the greatest, but me personally can't enjoy it so much somehow - probably because I want more "coherency" in the songs I hear.
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But I never said that! I said that there IS a border, but it's not easy to draw a line. |
True.
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Mind you, when I travel by train, I sometimes make up music in my mind to the rhythm of the wheels hitting the 'breaks' in rails (dammit i dunno the specific words, sorry). |
Yeah things like that happens sometimes. |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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Music / HipHop Discussion 2
But rock, classical, ambient, trance, dnb - those genres have their more or less strict rules too! Basing on a rock song, you make something similar, but people will then say it's not rock. You can make a typical rock song, but people can say "it's not original or interesting" etc.
I think it's not about IF there are rules, but WHAT they are. So you don't like the hiphop rules, but you do like rock rules? It's okay. But don't review hiphop, and don't listen to it if you don't accept the rules (sounds like a disclaimer or something ) |
You said it; "more or less" strict rules. I think hiphop have very simple (but strick rules)... I mean, the simple beat and the monotone music. If it isn't simple it isn't hiphop, and I think - generally - its much easier to create a simple beat than a complicated beat. Or whats even harder; a nice melody, which are rare in hiphop. Of course we have the rap, so I guess the guys have rhythm and are good at articulating and that stuff, but that's about it. And like I've mentioned before, it's maybe an art-form but not pure music - even if it connects to rhythm.
Maybe the ultimate way for U isn't the ultimate way for ME, but I believe in an ultimate way for most people on the planet.
...until a new generation comes. |
I’m talking about the presence We have no proof of what will happen in the future...
Do many young people today listen to 60s rock? Before rock, there was jazz (it's still here, but it's put aside, people don't dance to jazz in most clubs, do they?), and after rock there will be something.
Rock is not an ultimate thing, it's just a milestone in the evolution of music. For you it is ultimate, but then, new generations will come and start to question that. |
Like I just said, you have no proof of that there will be another “milestone in the evolution of music”. But I agree that rock maybe is just a “milestone in the evolution of music”, it would be a fair definition. But did I mentioned rock? I would like to mention house (or the disco music) that was invented in the 70’s is the next after rock. I will quote something from that Genre Definition Page I recommended a while ago on this forum;
"""House is the most soulful genre. It’s also the simplest, the oldest, the warmest, and where electronic music is concerned, easily the most human-sounding, making it the most popular, commanding the most producers, artists, labels, DJs, fans, and subgenres. The whole top40 pop music gets its hooks, gimmicks, lines and melodies from house music (and vice versa). That is why it stands as the world’s perennial party music, and it will probably stay that until the end of time. Or until someone finds a more catchy beat than the 4/4 bassdrum."""
No I'm sorry, this argument didn't passed because you mixed the eras and stuff. No seriously, I have no clue about what belongs to what and it has nothing to do with the discussion anyway.
I'll allow myself to disagree.
The literature example I touched is applicable in music as in every part of the human life. I mentioned it because you said "ultimate". For romantics, their view was ultimate. For enlightment people, THEIR view was ultimate. Each new view is ultimate until there is a new ultimate view. And the pendulum just shows us, that ALL views are ultimate, they just take turns to appear. |
Nonono, you misunderstood me... And I joked too. What I meant with that it has nothing to do with the discussion, was that you mixed the “eras and stuff” (the eras and stuff has nothing to do with the discussion, I meant.)
Like in music... you think melody is the ultimate thing? So there you go, young people love techno, dnb, hiphop, so unmelodical things. Nice and catchy melody is for oldies. Who knows.
More or less. Uh. Yep. Muahahaha. |
If that’s the case, I prefer to be an oldie (and it seems like most people do) And I suggest you to read the quote again, I agree with that guy.
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No, they aren't romantics or anything else from the literature. I just say there's the same mechanism. |
Yeah ok, I see |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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“The ‘intentional’ discussion”:
Of course they wont be THE SAME, but the listeners wouldn't notice any differences, so I guess the prerequisitations of both songs are THE SAME for evoking the same feelings - as long as the listnener doesn't know that the songs in question are made intentional or not.
If you want to do a certain thing, which may be weird, but you KNOW what you are doing, you will make it sound well. Just like in the drawing example we talked about: you can easily distinguish an awkward drawing and inentional misshaping. |
Yes, but it wont be any difference to the listener, because the listener doesn’t know if it was intentional or not... ? The example I gave in the last post was about two low-quality songs sounding exactly the same, but one of them was made low-quality – intentional.
Yeah, but what if the paintings just looks the same, I guess the people who contemplating it would see and feel the exactly same thing presumed that they doesn't know if they were painted in that way intentional or not.
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It's hard to tell you know. I personally would advocate the idea you CAN create something great by accident. You can achieve a good effect by mistake. I did that several times... like when I was a newbie I put a sample that was out of tune, and someone found the part with that sample the coolest in the song, because the detune thing gave it a lot of spice. |
Yeah of course, I’m not criticizing newbies, I just meant it’s up to the ears of the listener (regarding music) and it’s up to the eyes of the contemplater (regardning paintings)
It's not important if something was intentional; it IS important that you receive and appreciate a sort of message in a song. If we come back to my violin-and-beat example, you may appreciate the song the way it is, because it happened to be effective. Regardless of whether the author forgot to add chords or didn't want to.
But still, I have the right not to want to add the chords and then, as I said before, I acknowledge the risk of being rated low. Yet, I don't care because if I added chords, it wouldn't be 'sincere' any more, it'd be made 'for the public'. Almost commercial. |
Yes, I agree that the importance of intentions aren’t important regarding listening, but it seems like you think songs deserves higher ratings just because it was... Intentional.
Dischords can serve as another example here. Many artists use dischord because they find it appropriate, while newbies get the dischord effect due to the lack of experience. Yet you (not always, but I believe usually) can recognise intentional dischords.
I misspelled, should be "discord". And I'm not sure if it's the right word, I took it from a dictionary. It's dysonans in Polish.
It's not necessary due to an untuned instrument, it's when you eg. play E and F together. |
Ahh ok... E and F together sounds horrible!
I'm not contradicting. I love music in movies and I hate Polish TV because they add a lector reading the dialogues instead of subtitles, which kills the mood, mostly because the music is not so much in the front.
I also like colours, like most people, that's why color TV was invented.
In that movie, the lack of colours and music was a way, combined with the message of the film, they worked well. Yes, it was empty, (I even wished some sad music would be played here and there) but very convincing. And now, I appreciate the technique, that made the film's message stronger.
That film wasn't entertaining, it wasn't a tearjerker, or an impressive Lord Of The Rings-like picture. In an "ordinary" film, lack of music would be bad, because music raises the emotions that accompany the events you watch, music makes you feel more sorry when lovers part, more happy when they are back together. If the director wants you to feel like the characters feel - the music is added so that it stimulates your emotions.
The lack of music made me feel the indifference, the emptiness of life of the characters, the hopelessness. |
Yes, OK |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
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Another Discussion
Hm?
(can't refer to previous posts, they are too long and far away, and there is no quotation from those here any more...) |
OK... Lets see what we have wrote about this... I make a few reminders:
Cooth said: Hiphop is not my cup of tea, I'm not the right person to discuss this particular genre, as I do not listen to it. In my posts I went somewhat beyond the original topic. I don't even remember now how it happened. But hip hop is a genre that is a kind of new and not so common technique itself. That's how I treat it. If I can't understand how people can possibly listen to a guy rapping over a monotonous rhythm - that means it's not addressed to me. Although I can't deny for sure I will possibly get to listen to hiphop some day.
Mr.E said: Hiphop was invented in the 80's (or maybe it was -79 or something) and I actually think some of those old school songs was pretty cool to listen to. Back then it was cool and new, but STILL it wasn't the genre that dominated that decade. By time I dont think hiphop has enveloped itself, its the same things but worse; ripped parts from old songs... Back then I'm sure the artist at least made everything up by themselves. And actually there were some music in the pieces! But now the genre is completely lost and STILL I hear it a lot on MTV etc...
Cooth said: But imagine I make a jazz song that uses the standards of an oldschool swing style jazz, almost copying some master's work, yet making my own melodies and solos. It will be rated high, given I do it well technicaly. BUT when I push the frontiers further, try create something completely mine, many people will say "it's not real jazz". Same with hiphop I guess. Is the genre old enough to say that there is "traditional hiphop"?
Mr.E said: Its a big different of copying a masters work, and almost copying a masters work + adding your own stuff, isn't it? I dont get the question about traditional hiphop.
Cooth said: No no, I didn't mean copying some stuff and adding some new stuff. I meant copying the style, the ideas. Making something completely mine, but in a similar shape. Using a traditional jazz rhythm, traditional jazz instruments, traditional jazz structure.
Mr.E said: I wasn't citicizing that, I was criticizing hiphop that RIP! Remember?
Your turn |
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