Analysis
  Artist
Topics: 72
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Registered: 16.Mar.03 |
The ability to become beast is not only in man, but its also Inside you. Now I wonder how do you know that you aren't the beast now, but they are? How can you know that they should stop being a beast, and become like you, instead of the other way around? Who determines what a beast is actually?
As for now, you've only said that feelings indicate that you are good and they are
bad, but feelings can't be trusted. I want to have some agruments based on facts.
Another new song released (891 hits) |
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Cooth
 Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
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Analysis wrote on 10 Dec. (21:44) :
The ability to become beast is not only in man, but its also Inside you.
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You're suggesting I'm not a man?  
Now I wonder how do you know that you aren't the beast now, but they are? How can you know that they should stop being a beast, and become like you, instead of the other way around? Who determines what a beast is actually?
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Honestly I can say we're all beasts in a way. I am a beast, because I know potentially I can do things that terrify me. Sometimes I did that in my imagination.
Let's not get too much into the term "beast" though, that's something to describe the evil that's lying inside us. A beast is a creature that does horrible and terrifying deeds.
As for now, you've only said that feelings indicate that you are good and they are
bad, but feelings can't be trusted. I want to have some agruments based on facts.
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No no no, I haven't said I'm good. I'm trying to be the best I can, but it doesn't mean I do just good things and anything. But let's leave people alone for a while. Deeds can be good or bad. Of course, one can say women are not people just evil ghosts who should be tamed and beaten just in case, but damn, in our civilisation we already discovered they are people and they even have their own feelings and can suffer too.
I have an impression you're trying to catch me into a trap like a philosopher finding paradoxes instead of observing the reality. We can't move from one place to another, as we have to move 1/2 of the way first. Than another 1/4, 1/16 etc etc. the goal will never be reached.
In a similar way: a girl has all her life wasted serving a man and collecting bruises. But no, it's just relative and theoretically speaking there's nothing wrong about that.
You admit Nazis were "agreed" to be bad, but on the other and state that women-abusers just have their own point of view, which may be even right even though we don't agree with them. Why?
Of course, we, here and now, are more sensitive than the early tribes. But how does lack of sensitivity make wrong things less wrong?
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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Analysis
Artist
Topics: 72
Replies: 6282
Registered: 16.Mar.03 |
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Cooth wrote on 10 Dec. (22:21) :
No no no, I haven't said I'm good. I'm trying to be the best I can, but it doesn't mean I do just good things and anything. But let's leave people alone for a while. Deeds can be good or bad. Of course, one can say women are not people just evil ghosts who should be tamed and beaten just in case, but damn, in our civilisation we already discovered they are people and they even have their own feelings and can suffer too.
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I totally agree with this, but actually this is a way to evade what I'm asking you, in my opinion.
Cooth wrote on 10 Dec. (22:21) :
I have an impression you're trying to catch me into a trap like a philosopher finding paradoxes instead of observing the reality. We can't move from one place to another, as we have to move 1/2 of the way first. Than another 1/4, 1/16 etc etc. the goal will never be reached.
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I'm not trapping you or something like that. I'm just a guy who's arguments are usually 'on the edge', and either you or me are going off..
Or I find out that I misunderstood you simply
Cooth wrote on 10 Dec. (22:21) :
You admit Nazis were "agreed" to be bad, but on the other and state that women-abusers just have their own point of view, which may be even right even though we don't agree with them. Why?
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Quite simple. Everyone, execpt a few very small groups, agreez that nazi's are bad. I've said that I agree on this, since I see 'puplic opion' as a way to justify things. But as soon as reasonable groups start to disagree with an opinion then its hard for me to say 'this is absolute good'... (which is also cultural, since I live in a democracy, but lets save that for someother dicussion)
I can't claim though, that every guy agreez to the fact that you shouldn't beat your wife. Some ppl dont think that they abuse their woman, when they do this.
Cooth wrote on 10 Dec. (22:21) :
Of course, we, here and now, are more sensitive than the early tribes. But how does lack of sensitivity make wrong things less wrong?
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How does an overkill of sensitive make things more good? It's all a matter of perception. As I said, I dont think that a single man can say that something should be done because its ethical 'good' to do so, or that it feels 'good' to him, since there is no way of telling that his visions on 'good' and 'bad' aren't polluted. In fact, only God knows exactly what good and bad means.
To the subject. I think it's very difficult to say whether some guy may beat his wife or not. I believe that a woman is a human, and i believe that humans have to be respected, at all costs. So I thinkt hat beating a human being isn't good, even if you think that women are less important then men, since women still are human beings. But then again, who am I to say that they should behave the way I want it?
Looking at it from a perpective of the woman, then I would say that she needs a way out of there, since needs freedom of choice here, but looking at the perpective of the men, then I wouldn't agree with that. I think that you've opened a thread with a great dilemma, but I can't see a way out of it sadly.
Luckily though, that I'm a christian and that I can fiercly say that I want a law here, that prevents men to beat there woman. I can base that on the bible and I can say that bible is better then the koran, since the bible says its better. Too bad that 80% of the ppl disgrees with me on this last point.
Another new song released (891 hits) |
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Vegaro
Member
Topics: 48
Replies: 661
Registered: 05.May.04 |
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I kind of tried to read everything, but I stopped at the second page..
I don't like the way you backtracked from the important subject, that is how European cultures can deal with a foreign entity within them, and specifically concerning women's rights.
IMO, there is no cultural or religious excuse for mistreating women, just like there would be no cultural or religious excuse to killing people as a sport or cannibalism. Even within arab countries, it's horrific to hear sometimes how they'd execute a woman for doing something that men do every day. I believe atleast some of you read the story about how they burried a woman up to her head and then threw stones at her until she died. Surely, such brutality and mob behavior is far from culture and morality as anything could be.
I think European countries must do do everything it takes to break the cultural ghettos, as soon as possible, since two different cultures cannot coexist for long if they do not share the same moral values, as a minimum. By breaking the cultural ghetto I don't mean converting them to christianity, but getting them to live in mixed neighborhood.
Just an example, in the Palestinian society around Israel there are some cities that have no connection to Israel and some that have allot of it. The ones who are studying and working in Israel are probably the most 'westernized' of all arabs (anywhere). They somehow manage to make Islam work with women's equality, higher education, and democratic ideals. So it can be done.
Ofcourse a person who lived her entire life in a system would be afraid to replace it, even if it means freedom. I know I would. But the generation that will be born to a reality that allows them to choose freedom without fearing anything, would atleast have the freedom to choose their own destiny, and that's what this is all about! The day I will be convinced that all the arab females consciously, knowingly and thoughtfully accept their degrading position in their society, I'll shut up forever about Islam's crimes against female kind.
(And by freedom I mean everything gopher said i just don't want to get into it since it's a different discussion)
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obScene
Member
Topics: 137
Replies: 3482
Registered: 08.Aug.03 |
Didnt have time to read all this now as I'm at work... but I read the first post.
Of course I agree 100%. But what you're saying is why can't Europe be more like America.
And that is not popular. |
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
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Analysis wrote on 11 Dec. (0:36) :
Quite simple. Everyone, execpt a few very small groups, agreez that nazi's are bad. I've said that I agree on this, since I see 'puplic opion' as a way to justify things. But as soon as reasonable groups start to disagree with an opinion then its hard for me to say 'this is absolute good'... (which is also cultural, since I live in a democracy, but lets save that for someother dicussion)
I can't claim though, that every guy agreez to the fact that you shouldn't beat your wife. Some ppl dont think that they abuse their woman, when they do this.
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It is a little too vague as for me, I mean what reasonable man will say beating up a weaker human being is a good thing? Hitler's officers were very intelligent people after all, that doesn't make all the ideology any more valid. Sorry for going back to the Nazis all the time, but I really see this way: tradition, religion, ideology - as excuses for nasty things.
Cooth wrote on 10 Dec. (22:21) :
Of course, we, here and now, are more sensitive than the early tribes. But how does lack of sensitivity make wrong things less wrong?
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How does an overkill of sensitive make things more good?
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It doesn't but a sensitive person is less likely to hurt/abuse other people. Too much sensitivity isn't good either of course. But there is the natural balance we may have found. From our perspective, we can see how horrible Arab communities can be - they may not see it as they're in the middle of that.
To the subject. I think it's very difficult to say whether some guy may beat his wife or not.
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I think it's very easy. As Vegaro said in his post, with which I fully agree, no culture or religion can be an excuse for something like that.
I believe that a woman is a human, and i believe that humans have to be respected, at all costs. So I thinkt hat beating a human being isn't good, even if you think that women are less important then men, since women still are human beings. But then again, who am I to say that they should behave the way I want it?
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You are a person who has been given a chance to understand some things. You are a person who can see a woman is a human being with her own feelings and who can suffer too. You can see that abusing her is evil. The fact other people may not see it, doesn't change anything in my opinion. You know that already.
Let's face it. Their culture is way behind ours in this matter. "We" (Europeans) have been through all kinds of injustice, we stil have a lot of it now, but we have already understood some thing. Their tradition is more stiff, strict, less elastic, changeable. They haven't understood some things yet. Or maybe they do understand, but the pressure of the society is too hard.
Looking at it from a perpective of the woman, then I would say that she needs a way out of there, since needs freedom of choice here, but looking at the perpective of the men, then I wouldn't agree with that. I think that you've opened a thread with a great dilemma, but I can't see a way out of it sadly.
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There's no dilemma for me; the point of view of a man which you mention, is to have benefits of his domination over women. I'm a man too and I find this point of view bullcrap.
Nations want to conquer other nations, various people steal to be rich, men want to dominate women. They all have their points of view, which I simply cannot accept.
Luckily though, that I'm a christian and that I can fiercly say that I want a law here, that prevents men to beat there woman. I can base that on the bible and I can say that bible is better then the koran, since the bible says its better. Too bad that 80% of the ppl disgrees with me on this last point.
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Dunno about Koran, but they say it is not a bad book; you might think Bible is a horrible book judging just by Christian people's behaviour. That's a completely different story though. Christians tend to be bad to women too.
Vegaro: I totally agree with every word of yours. I also think the whole thing concerns not only grown up women, but also young girls who may have a chance to grow up as free people. I really don't believe if they are raised this way, they would pick this kind of slavery, maybe with some radical exceptions...
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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Randor
 Administrator
Topics: 564
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Registered: 27.Dec.02 |
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I'm not aware of all statements yet, but wanna comment first posts
At first it seems clear, Cooth has good point when saying immigrants should integrate our society since they're incomers and we were here. Second, deeper analysis reveals contradiction, who are we to say what is good and right, whats bad and wrong? I can't authorize myself to judge that, my set of values are, even claimed sovereign, still basing to early christian values. Affect of it can't be denied even you were atheist or pagan, since heritage of our culture is way deeper than it seems in first sight. Fact is if we look this from philosophic view, we have responsibility to integrate their culture as much as they has toward ours. That leads to choose between total integration and isolated coexistence and all between that. Former means probably outside stable society where individuals have little or none identity, latter being more like its now, isolated cultures with frequent clashes.
If its not clear, my point is we have to start integration. But lets not head against totally integrated, dull and equal society, lets try something in the middle. My point isn't we should take their values and start subjugate our womans. Ofcource not. There's plenty of good values too, just need to find them out. When you start finding them, integration has begun
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Gopher
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Topics: 24
Replies: 1540
Registered: 05.Jan.03 |
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You say that there should be laws for this and that, but there already are. Common law covers 99% of what you guys want - only the closed minded-ness or inability of people inside that community prevent or dismiss what is going on.
What some of your posts are straying to is "forcing them do what we say". What obScene said about making Europe more like America is very noticable in these posts. America have a government which is tightly intertwined with their religious (Christian) culture, and with which they disagree with many things that happen in the Middle East. To a certain way, some of this is probably influenced by the media (i.e. all arabs beat women, things like that) in order to fuel the propaganda machine, but in the end what you get is "we don't like you, you should do what we say", and hey presto, Iraq War 3 (which should be over soon, hopefully).
I think the point is, we all understand the majority of the mechanisms and devices that lay behind these injustices, whether they are tradition, contextual misinterpretation of religious texts (the Bible, the Koran or whatever) or simple flawed ideology. I imagine the government understands this too, and they also understand how things should change - slowly. What you guys want is very much a change now (over say the next decade), to cure the world of all it's injustices. The truth is, such a great change in a short space of time would require a large catalyst to force their way of living to suit ourselves, in which we become the dictators.
Such deep rooted traditions, that are so evident in the world take a long time to change - I'm thinking in the order of generations. Unless you want a war, things don't change overnight - especially when the people you want to change hate you already.
As for the people who have already settled down in our countries with their own ideologies, when they set foot in our country they are subject to OUR laws. Our laws are above theirs, no matter what they think. When they step over that line, then they are subject to consequences that reflect upon their actions. |
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Analysis
Artist
Topics: 72
Replies: 6282
Registered: 16.Mar.03 |
Look, from my point of view, no guy may ever beat his woman. All I'm trying to say is that there is more the think of, then a simple: I feel bad about it, so it's not good. Besides music, feelings are hardly good for anything.
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
It's not really about feelings Analysis, it's about common sense. We know beating women and all is wrong, it is obvious to us for reasons I rambled on over the 3 pages of the topic. We know abusing people is wrong. Also stealing, killing etc. There are deeds that are agreed on to be bad and there are arguable ones too.
I don't mean I have a complete moral code I want to enforce on everybody. I just say the subject of this topic is one of those beyond discussion.
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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