Louigi Verona
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Topics: 384
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Registered: 22.Aug.03 |
| We often think about the world in our own understanding. We have certain values that we think are important for other people. We tend to think that our world vision is the only right. What an amazment we experience when we find out that our opinion is one in a million! Apparently, there is always a good reason for ppl doing this or that and especially when we are talking about traditions that were founded hundreds of years ago. So I think that European ppl shouldn't affect anything like that. Let ppl make their choice - that's real freedom, isn't it? |
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
Right now Arab women do not have that much of a choice, don't you think? You might as well say our women didn't want freedom until recent times, when suffrage and this kind of stuff appeared. Apparently, now they are happy to be able to make their own choices and have full citizen's rights. Just ask them.
Of course there are many opinions, and I respect other people's visions of the world, unless they cost some other people too much, if you know what I mean.
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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Vegaro
Member
Topics: 48
Replies: 661
Registered: 05.May.04 |
Wow. Le me gasp for a second while I think about hundred or thousand year old tradition.
Too bad Humanity exists for 100,000 years in homo-sapiens form.
What is culture and tradition? A spit in time, meaningless crap.
Women were free way longer than they were enslaved
And should I assume you also accept social castes, slavery, death penalties, mutilation, cannibalism, Tyrrany, human sacrifice, genocide, sitcoms (and the list goes) on the same basis?
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Analysis
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Topics: 72
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Registered: 16.Mar.03 |
Cooth wrote on 11 Dec. (19:45) :
Of course there are many opinions, and I respect other people's visions of the world, unless they cost some other people too much, if you know what I mean.
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And who is going to tell that something costs other ppl to much then? What are the rules for that?
Another new song released (879 hits) |
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Louigi Verona
Member
Topics: 384
Replies: 3827
Registered: 22.Aug.03 |
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Vegaro wrote on 11 Dec. (21:48) :
Wow. Le me gasp for a second while I think about hundred or thousand year old tradition.
Too bad Humanity exists for 100,000 years in homo-sapiens form.
What is culture and tradition? A spit in time, meaningless crap.
Women were free way longer than they were enslaved
And should I assume you also accept social castes, slavery, death penalties, mutilation, cannibalism, Tyrrany, human sacrifice, genocide, sitcoms (and the list goes) on the same basis?
This message is 100% meat free |
Not on the same basis. What you said and what we are talking about are different things. Other ppl's way of life, especially other nation's, has reasons. You can't just say - hey, I'm smarter then all the Arabians (that's hundred thousands of people). I know better how to live then those thousands minds so you should live the way I want. They can say the same thing about you. If there's such a tradition, perhaps it means something and Arab ppl need it. If it is needless in our times, it will dissappear by itself. If it has a point even today, it will stay no matter what. |
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Vegaro
Member
Topics: 48
Replies: 661
Registered: 05.May.04 |
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Louigi Verona wrote on 12 Dec. (9:47) :
Not on the same basis. What you said and what we are talking about are different things. Other ppl's way of life, especially other nation's, has reasons. You can't just say - hey, I'm smarter then all the Arabians (that's hundred thousands of people). I know better how to live then those thousands minds so you should live the way I want. They can say the same thing about you. If there's such a tradition, perhaps it means something and Arab ppl need it. If it is needless in our times, it will dissappear by itself. If it has a point even today, it will stay no matter what. |
I see and understand your point, but I have to differ on your positive conclusion to it. I don't believe that things work out themselves on the best manner, eventually. I believe that only thoughtfull and compassionate intervention can solve such issues.
Regardless, since we are talking strictly about the arab culture in European countries, I want to keep the discussion over the entire Arab culture out of this.
Since I am focusing my argument to Arab culture within European countries, I can say that I think I believe it is the right of European nations and countries to force the arabs within them to open their people to other ways of life. Anyone should be allowed to make a choice on the matter, with no unfair pressure to either direction.
In this case, you are right, and if Arab women are truly happy with their way of life, then their choice would settle the issue.
The only problem is, that part of the Arab women's way of life, is to avoid such decision making. So I find it hard to believe that cultural leaders in Arab societies (within Europe) would agree to an arrangement similar to this.
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
Analysis wrote on 11 Dec. (21:56) :
Cooth wrote on 11 Dec. (19:45) :
Of course there are many opinions, and I respect other people's visions of the world, unless they cost some other people too much, if you know what I mean.
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And who is going to tell that something costs other ppl to much then? What are the rules for that?
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I think the problem lies in the fact you picked the least important part of my post to quote. The reply is in the rest of it.
If you ask a random woman if everything's fine, you can calm your conscience down. I used to think we should respect other nations' points of view too, but as I think of it now, the way communities govern themselves can be nasty and viscious, and injust. Our own history shows that. Today's women are mostly happy with the rights that'd been fought out quite recently in our parts of the world.
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
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Louigi Verona wrote on 12 Dec. (9:47) :
Not on the same basis. What you said and what we are talking about are different things. Other ppl's way of life, especially other nation's, has reasons. You can't just say - hey, I'm smarter then all the Arabians (that's hundred thousands of people). I know better how to live then those thousands minds so you should live the way I want. They can say the same thing about you. If there's such a tradition, perhaps it means something and Arab ppl need it. If it is needless in our times, it will dissappear by itself. If it has a point even today, it will stay no matter what. |
Well, when you see that a brother beats his younger brother or sister, you're not going to react at all? Why? because he must have his reasons? How can you know if the reasons are any good? Whenever there's something bad-looking going on next to you, it's a good thing to get interested in it - not necessarily making war on anyone of course.
Right now we can see something really bad going on next to us. I'm not going to accept it just because it's based on a tradition.
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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Louigi Verona
Member
Topics: 384
Replies: 3827
Registered: 22.Aug.03 |
| Everyone tries to change the topic by comparing something that is undoubtfully bad with a way of other ppl's life. Brother beating a brother and the tradition laid over Arab women are quite different things. A reason for someone killing another isn't reasonable whatever, but a tradition that's been a hundred years may be. I am not saying it is and I'm not saying that there is nothing we should do about it, but I don't believe that pushing someone towards a new way of life without them being ready for that is a right thing to do. If we believe we can, then there's trouble inside us, not next to us. |
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Cooth
Member
Topics: 59
Replies: 3588
Registered: 02.Jan.03 |
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Louigi Verona wrote on 12 Dec. (19:20) :
I am not saying it is and I'm not saying that there is nothing we should do about it, but I don't believe that pushing someone towards a new way of life without them being ready for that is a right thing to do. If we believe we can, then there's trouble inside us, not next to us. |
Beating women isn't different because it is a tradition hundreds of years old, is not something I understand, maybe I'm too limited. There may be various nasty practices dating back to ancient times, but the fact people are used to them doesn't make them any better.
Whether people are ready or not, strongly depends on the upbringing. Were Polish people ready for democracy? The truth is, it appears many today's 50-year-olds were not. Does that mean we should still have communism? Of course, as someone said, it must come from them, if anything's to change. But then, I don't want to change their culture. I'm just thinking of those who live here, in Europe. I don't want to force them to anything, but maybe a friendly hand from us to the women, not the community? Maybe let them go to our schools, learn our languages and see the world of ours? Those are possibilities. The decision they make we have to respect.
I just wanna say a tradition is no sacrum for me, tradition can be evil and injust like anything else. And yes, it has its reasons, everything in the world has, including WW2 and communism. But if those people live in Europe, we might consider making the more 'civilised' in our way, even if we don't interfere with the way they live in their own countries. When the women see life from different perspectives, they can make their choice. But right now, I don't see why the importance of maintaining an old tradition is more important than individual freedom of choice.
...but everything's crap anyway... |
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