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Atlantis
  Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
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I've been reading a lot of reviews lately in which the reviewer stated that the mixing of a track was good, or even perfect, whereas after listening to and reviewing the track myself, I would say quite the opposite.
So, I thought I'd start a general topic about mixing, and in particular, what makes a good mix. I believe I already have most of the answers to this myself, why I tend to give my share of criticism when reviewing a track, but then what compels everyone to say a mix is good, while to me it just sounds like soup? 
Those actually having mastered the art of using equalisation to separate your instruments will probably know that there is a certain balance between getting a sound where all the lines between the instruments are blurred, and a fully transparent one - and that you often don't want to have too much of the latter at the expense of things sounding too clean and emotionally detached. 
But, to me, anything is better than a muddy mix where everything blurs into everything else, as all too many times I've listened to previews (not to mention finished pieces of work) in which I could barely hear a certain instrument until the artist actually told me it was there - with the intent of it actually being heard. Or things like, "is that a flute you having playing in the background there, or a piano?" (I won't mention names  )
Having been involved with mixing for numurous years, and lately mastering at increasingly professional levels, I've spent years training my ears to hear every nuance in a mix, and I'll know when different instruments are fighting for sonic space, and yet most would probably still class this as a perfect mix. Is it lack of knowledge and experience then? Maybe your monitoring equipment isn't quite up to the task? Or maybe I'm just paying too much attention to detail? Seriously though, I find the level of mixing in the amateur scene so far behind that of the commercial scene, it's not funny. Maybe this topic can help raise that level of quality a little. 
Of course, there are those who just want to focus on the music and forget about mixing altogether, but these days every artist is essentially their own mix engineer, and it pays to know at least a thing or two about mixing, such as what can be done and what can't - and certainly if you intent to one day reach a wider audience. 
Well, I'm probably ranting too much, but maybe people can address questions here, and discuss certain mixing issues, such as what makes and breaks a mix, etc. I don't want to disrupt any artistic practises of course, but mixing really isn't that hard once you get the hang of it - and there really are rules saying that you can't boost an instrument predominantly occupying the 6 kHz range that much. Yes, eventually you'll probably start criticising every mix knowing it could sound better too, but at the same time you also appreciate the better mixes so much more, all while improving the sound of your own mixes, too.
Well, I've run out of blahness. 
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal  |
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sonus
 Artist
Topics: 20
Replies: 501
Registered: 26.May.04 |
I think this discussion could be much better if we could somehow get some real examples of what individuals perceive to be a so-called "perfect" mix while you hear it as "soup". That would be interesting.
To answer your question, I think it lies soley on differences in perception. Since you have trained yourself to expect a great mix, anything below your expectations is inherently dissapointing. Another individual may perceive the same track as being mixed very well, because they lack the same expectations.
I also enjoy a well mixed track. As I've argued before (on other forums), I believe that a high quality mix is vital in musical artistic expression. I am utterly turned off by a blatantly bad mix, and therefore am not able to enjoy the artistic qualities of the track that I'm listening to.
I forgot where I was going with this, so I'll come back later when there are some more replies. :oP |
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Xtatic
Member
Topics: 27
Replies: 778
Registered: 17.Aug.03 |
Reply is hidden.
Reply was moderated by acecream on 08. Nov 2005 (13:12)
Reason: "Avoid short, chat-like, useless messages, like "Lol", "Thanks", just-a-smiley messages"
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Atlantis
Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
sonus wrote on 08 Nov. (5:46) :
As I've argued before (on other forums), I believe that a high quality mix is vital in musical artistic expression. I am utterly turned off by a blatantly bad mix, and therefore am not able to enjoy the artistic qualities of the track that I'm listening to. |
I think that puts this whole topic in exactly the right light, and it's probably more so where I was coming from. It's the same with mastering. It's all about getting the musical expression to come across as best as possible.
Need to get some sleep now. 
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal |
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xa
Artist
Topics: 54
Replies: 2755
Registered: 08.Jun.04 |
hmm... Muddy is better than harsh at least.
Cliché breeds familiarity 
- Redheat |
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Ethelion
Member
Topics: 40
Replies: 562
Registered: 25.Mar.03 |
The more knowledge you obtain from mixing and mastering music, the more selective you become as a listener. We all need more knowledge from and experience with this invaluable ingredient to music production, but unfortunately we either don't have the time, or simply don't have the will to learn.
Personally, I know what I want in a mix and how I want the mastering to sound, but I haven't been able to get that 'perfect' sound yet. So when I review music, and I hear a mastering or mixing that I would like to apply to my own music, I credit the person behind the work.
There is no such thing as a perfect mix.
Factors that play an important role:
- 1. Personal taste (desire & concept)
- 2. Equipment (software & hardware)
- 3. Skill-level (experience & knowledge)
| My music : CTGMusic 
| My art : DeviantArt 
| My life : ethelion.com  |
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Chris Edberg
Member
Topics: 47
Replies: 2575
Registered: 04.Aug.03 |
I don't download illegal software - Am I a hopeless case? 
Not so funny signature |
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Ethelion
Member
Topics: 40
Replies: 562
Registered: 25.Mar.03 |
Kricke wrote on 08 Nov. (12:46) :
I don't download illegal software - Am I a hopeless case?
Not so funny signature |
Well, you can still get the necessary software and hardware legally.
Choosing not to download illegal software is very commendable of you, but only as long as you don't look down on the people who do.
After all, the only reason people support piracy is due to the fact that everything cost more than it is worth, or more than one can afford. It all winds down to a choice between living a normal, healthy life with pirated software, or living as a poor bastard with legal, registered software.
This is even more true when dealing with mastering and mixing software, which outprice almost any other software out there.
Personally, I will both register and license my software if I ever make money using it.
So for now, my conscience is clean.
| My music : CTGMusic
| My art : DeviantArt
| My life : ethelion.com |
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Gopher
Member
Topics: 24
Replies: 1540
Registered: 05.Jan.03 |
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Ethelion wrote on 08 Nov. (13:26) :
After all, the only reason people support piracy is due to the fact that everything cost more than it is worth, or more than one can afford.
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Actually, thats not the only reason. The fact that it's available turns it into a simple choice whose only deciding factor is that character's morals/ethics:
Should I wait 4 hours and install,
OR
Should I wait 1 week, pay £/$/(YOUR CURRENCY HERE)XYZ and install?
(There is no such thing as immediate shipment! Unless it's a pay-per-download...
In some cases, Humans, like electricty, prefer the path of least resistance.
Anyway, back OT:
In terms of mastering and mixing, I suppose I have a slightly different take on everything due to the genre I work in; in post production, I don't mix or EQ, I think the only two things I do are normalise and limiting (okay, so it's similar to compression... try and ignore that for the moment).
Thats not to say that I don't EQ or Mix, rather thats done at a far earlier stage; for me, getting the frequency balance, making sure that the lead is not muddied by any supporting equipment is done during composition, rather than going back over when it's all done - it's far more integrated.
It's easy to tell when something isn't right, simply because it sounds crap, has frequency gaps (Gathering of Arms is particularly guilty of that), or lead instruments don't meld the way they should. To that extent, and also since I'm not entirely sure where I'm going either, I'll just summarise:
Gopher's ideas of what makes a good mix (in no particular order, since in some cases it might differ, and keep in mind that this is biased towards orchestral music for somewhat obvious reasons):
Clarity
You should be able to identify almost everything in terms of melody. Everything melody, submelody, right the way down to around the cellos should be distinct. You might not be able to pick out each instrument (if you try you might be missing the point), but you should be able to hear the combined sound.
Appropriate Frenquency Density
(Kamen, Suite Two, Band of Brothers is good at this, but lacks a little clarity for my liking)
I word it diplomatically since not every tune is aimed at a frequency rich atmosphere. That said, if you aim for it, you gotta be sure you can do it, and it should be obvious that is what your intention is.
Panning
Less of an issue for me since I have lots of preset orchestral ideas, but in the greater picture it's not just about getting equal SPLs on left and right.
Other Stuff That Matters:
Experience:
Nothing sounds good without this, both in terms of composition and mastering.
Good Equipment:
It certainly helps, but I see (or rather hear) far too many thinking that by using professional tools, professional sounding music comes out. The above should come before this.
Uh, I'll finish my ranting here. Comments welcome.
byes
http://www.dragonslay.co.uk/
http://www.ctgmusic.com/Gopher
http://dimlight.net/
More soon |
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Alphadelta
Member
Topics: 5
Replies: 65
Registered: 13.Aug.04 |
Completely agree with that end bit - experience, or at least a hefty amount of technical knowledge is what counts - other than that lots of asking questions/learning from other people and experimenting.. Good equipment can help but yeah ultimately it comes down to the producer. |
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