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Atlantis
  Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
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Provos wrote on 15 Nov. (1:15) :
Don't get me wrong, mastering in Reason is still lacking. The MClass compressor, maximiser, and stero imager are all tops, but the EQ is still a bit lacking. The global 30hz "de-rumble cut" is of course useless for dance/electronic music, and true filter action is impossible. For example, in FL, you can route your kick through a hp filter (to keep it from interfering from teh bassline) and have precise control on the frequency you're cutting at - lets say, 70 khz. Takeing the same example in Reason... first off, you'd have to put the kick sample in a sampler instead of a redrum channel, because that's the only way you'll get a hp filter. Then, you'll find that a hp filter all the way open (so it shouldn't be interfering with anything) is actually still cutting way up there around 120. Useless.
Solution? Route it through a couple of PEQs, which, for people who like precise control, is quite inaccurate. You, perhaps, might end up making a general boost around 80-120, a cut which with any luck is actually around 500k, and a sharp cut around 30 or so. As a result, you're going by your ears instead of precise numbers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should never rely on your ears to tell you what sounds good, but quite honestly I'd like to have more precise control.
The ECF seems to be more oriented towards sweeping filter action instead of a "real" filter, with more control over the cutoff freq. This is one of the times when I wish Reason wasn't so closed-minded toward thirdparty plugins 
Small wonder Reason has a rep of always sounding a little flat... very few out there want to bother with buying a mastering package and audio editor and spend a week tweaking the knobs to get the perfect sound.
Just me musing on the realm of music 
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Man, you sure know your stuff. Couldn't agree more with everything you're saying. 
I don't know about mastering externally being the best solution though. 80% of mastering is mixing, and a poorly EQ'd mix just isn't going to cut it. It is a pity Reason is so closed-minded toward third party plugins, but I guess there's always the Rewire option?
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal |
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Nifflas
Member
Topics: 80
Replies: 1599
Registered: 05.Mar.04 |
It's quite funny, when most of you, sound engineering dudes, explain the filter, you explain the mixing aspect of it, how to use it to improve the sound.
I think more of the filter as an effect since I'm not a sound engineer.
erm... I wish I had something better to add to the topic than this...
 within a deep forest project site. |
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LoneStar
Member
Topics: 3
Replies: 154
Registered: 03.Jun.04 |
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Atlantis wrote on 13 Nov. (23:11) :
They're nothing more than EQ filters that equalise only those frequencies above or below the cutoff frequency you select.
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EQs and filters are NOT the same. To be exact, EQs and (synth) filters both are different types of filters (generally), but I'll stick to the terms EQ and filter because everyone is used to it.
1) An EQ only attenuates certain frequencies, while a filter completely cancels them out.
2) While an EQ has a fixed maximum attenuation and amplifixation (usually +-15dB on pro consoles), a filter's attenuation of frequencies will rise exponentially, the more the attenuated frequencies differ from the cutoff frequency.
Example: standard filter 12dB/oct, like it's used in most analog/virtual analog/digital/hybrid (read: substractive) synthesizers
the 12dB/oct means that the frequency one octave above (or below for highpass) the set cutoff frequency will be attenuated by 12dB; further, the frequency two octaves above will be attenuated by 24dB, and so on.
erm... er... n00b. |
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g
Member
Topics: 10
Replies: 2037
Registered: 03.Jan.03 |
LoneStar wrote on 21 Nov. (12:39) :
the 12dB/oct means that the frequency one octave above (or below for highpass) the set cutoff frequency will be attenuated by 12dB; further, the frequency two octaves above will be attenuated by 24dB, and so on.
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Well, since the cutoff point is usually at -3dB the attenuation would be -15dB one octave above the cutoff point, -27db two octaves above and so on for a 12dB/octave lp filter. |
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Analysis
 Artist
Topics: 72
Replies: 6282
Registered: 16.Mar.03 |
hey, HP's and LP's on filters are pretty common. Those HP's and LP's doesn't have to mean that it cancels all freq's above or under the cutoff-freq. Sometimes you can control how much of those freq's are cutted.
But then again, there are so damn many versions...
It took a while, but : It's a new release! (3497 hits) |
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PartySan
Artist
Topics: 54
Replies: 6015
Registered: 20.Jun.04 |
Analysis wrote on 21 Nov. (20:03) :
hey, HP's and LP's on filters are pretty common. Those HP's and LP's doesn't have to mean that it cancels all freq's above or under the cutoff-freq. Sometimes you can control how much of those freq's are cutted.
But then again, there are so damn many versions...
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yeah...
the mids are what probably is most complicated to me.
And don't forget to live  |
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Void Pointer
Artist
Topics: 68
Replies: 5292
Registered: 08.Feb.03 |
PartySan wrote on 22 Nov. (7:29) :
Analysis wrote on 21 Nov. (20:03) :
hey, HP's and LP's on filters are pretty common. Those HP's and LP's doesn't have to mean that it cancels all freq's above or under the cutoff-freq. Sometimes you can control how much of those freq's are cutted.
But then again, there are so damn many versions...
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yeah...
the mids are what probably is most complicated to me.
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There's when Bandpass filter or a simple Equalizer comes in 
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Atlantis
Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
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LoneStar wrote on 21 Nov. (12:39) :
Atlantis wrote on 13 Nov. (23:11) :
They're nothing more than EQ filters that equalise only those frequencies above or below the cutoff frequency you select.
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EQs and filters are NOT the same. To be exact, EQs and (synth) filters both are different types of filters (generally), but I'll stick to the terms EQ and filter because everyone is used to it.
1) An EQ only attenuates certain frequencies, while a filter completely cancels them out.
2) While an EQ has a fixed maximum attenuation and amplifixation (usually +-15dB on pro consoles), a filter's attenuation of frequencies will rise exponentially, the more the attenuated frequencies differ from the cutoff frequency.
Example: standard filter 12dB/oct, like it's used in most analog/virtual analog/digital/hybrid (read: substractive) synthesizers
the 12dB/oct means that the frequency one octave above (or below for highpass) the set cutoff frequency will be attenuated by 12dB; further, the frequency two octaves above will be attenuated by 24dB, and so on.
erm... er... n00b. |
Maybe I should've been more specific and said that they're a type of filter found on most equalisers (which is what I meant with "EQ filters"); but, as you said, I'm trying to explain it in a way most people would understand. I'm well aware of what the differences are.
Technically, an EQ doesn't only attenuate [or boost] certain frequencies, as those are done using dedicated filters as well. The EQ is just the device that employs the filters, and the filters are the ones that actually equalise the sound...or something.
A filter doesn't have to completely cancel any frequencies out; think of a low or high shelving filter - you can vary the gain on either side of the cutoff, hence not removing them completely. Still, I see your point.
A highpass and lowpass filter's slopes rise exponentially? I'm sure it was linear the last time I checked, with the exception of the stop band and other blahness.
I agree with your example though. 
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal |
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Atlantis
Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
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s-f wrote on 21 Nov. (18:55) :
LoneStar wrote on 21 Nov. (12:39) :
the 12dB/oct means that the frequency one octave above (or below for highpass) the set cutoff frequency will be attenuated by 12dB; further, the frequency two octaves above will be attenuated by 24dB, and so on.
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Well, since the cutoff point is usually at -3dB the attenuation would be -15dB one octave above the cutoff point, -27db two octaves above and so on for a 12dB/octave lp filter. |
Where are you pulling the -3 dB from? I just tried placing a highpass filter at 250 Hz on the Waves Q10, and, you're right, the gain is -3 dB at the cutoff, but it's most definitely at -12.04 dB at 125 Hz. The 0 dB point is a bit unclear, but even though I'd expect it to be at 500 Hz, it seems to be a bit higher. I never quite understood this, but I always thought the 12 dB/octave slope worked in the way LoneStar described it. 
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal |
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Atlantis
Member
Topics: 84
Replies: 3227
Registered: 14.Jan.03 |
Analysis wrote on 21 Nov. (20:03) :
hey, HP's and LP's on filters are pretty common. Those HP's and LP's doesn't have to mean that it cancels all freq's above or under the cutoff-freq. Sometimes you can control how much of those freq's are cutted.
But then again, there are so damn many versions...
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Yep, and that would be the description of a lowshelf and highshelf filter. In a highpass and lowpass filter, you only have control over the cuttoff frequency, and sometimes the Q, or slope, so you pretty much just set up the frequency, losing 'everything' below/above it. But with a lowshelf and highshelf filter, you can also adjust the gain a desired amount, making it suitable in preserving low-level distortion, or general tonality changes between octaves.
Atlantis [Atlantean Records - digital audio mastering]
multiband professor/eq professor/Nur-Ab-Sal |
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